Theory 2 Action Podcast
Theory 2 Action Podcast
MM#407--Who Will Guide the Barque of Peter? The Next Pope, part 3: The History of Papal Conclaves
FAN MAIL--We would love YOUR feedback--Send us a Text Message
The mysterious world of papal conclaves comes alive in this eye-opening exploration of how the Catholic Church selects its highest leader. Did you know modern papal elections typically conclude in just three days? That's remarkably efficient for a decision that shapes the spiritual direction of 1.3 billion Catholics worldwide.
We take you on a journey through conclave history, revealing how these secretive gatherings have responded to the defining challenges of each era. From the aftermath of World War I to the height of the Cold War, each papal election reflects its historical moment while maintaining centuries-old traditions. The burning of ballots, the famous smoke signals, and the complete isolation of cardinals in the Sistine Chapel – these rituals carry profound symbolic meaning while serving practical purposes in the selection process.
Drawing insights from John Allen's authoritative book "Conclave," we examine the impossible balancing act required of modern popes. The ideal pontiff must simultaneously serve as diplomat, administrator, pastor, and teacher – a combination of skills no single person can fully master. This understanding provides crucial context for appreciating the momentous choice facing cardinals in the upcoming 2025 conclave.
The next papal election will confront unprecedented challenges that are already creating tensions within the global Church. The controversial Vatican-China agreement on bishop appointments and Germany's progressive Synodal Way represent competing visions for Catholicism's future. These developments raise profound questions about how the Church maintains unity while addressing contemporary concerns – questions that will heavily influence which cardinal emerges as the next Bishop of Rome.
Whether you're deeply familiar with Catholic traditions or simply fascinated by this ancient process, this episode delivers valuable context for understanding one of the world's most consequential leadership selections. Check out our recommended reading list to further explore the rich history of papal elections and the complex dynamics shaping the future of the Catholic Church.
Key Points from the Episode:
• Modern conclaves average 3.1 days to elect a new pope
• The longest modern conclaves lasted just five days (1903 and 1922)
• Several recent elections concluded in only two days
• Each conclave reflects the unique challenges of its era
• The 1922 conclave sought stability after World War I
• 1978 saw two conclaves in one year after Pope John Paul I's brief 33-day papacy
• Cardinals are completely isolated in the Sistine Chapel during voting
• Burned ballots produce the famous black and white smoke signals
• Allen's book "Conclave" provides insights into papal election processes
• Being Pope is described as an "impossible job" few church leaders actually want
• The 2018 Vatican-China agreement on bishop appointments remains controversial
• Germany's Synodal Way (2019-2023) has created tensions over proposed reforms
For more resources on papal history, check out "The History of the Popes" by John O'Malley, "Saints and Sinners" by Eamon Duffy.
Other resources:
Welcome to the Theory to Action podcast, where we examine the timeless treasures of wisdom from the great books in less time, to help you take action immediately and ultimately to create and lead a flourishing life. Now here's your host, david Kaiser flourishing life.
Speaker 2:Now here's your host, david Kaiser. Hello, I am David, and welcome back to another Mojo Minute. This is part three of our the Next Pope series, where we're diving into modern history and the fascinating details around and the fascinating details around Conclave 2025. So today we're going to have an incredible topic. It's going to be the history of papal conclaves. It's going to be a mix of some history, some religion, a peek behind the closed doors of an age-old tradition, and so our agenda for today is first, we're going to explore a big question how long do modern conclaves actually last? When can we expect a new pope to be selected? Next, we'll look at the most pressing issues cardinals have faced during conclaves over the past 100 years. Spoiler alert some of these decisions shape the future of the Catholic Church in big ways. And finally, we're going to get some book recommendations. Naturally, because we are a book podcast. Trust me, the book we have for you is better than watching a holiday version of a conclave, because that book is actually called Conclave, but it's written by a veteran Vatican reporter in 2002. Because we believe in sharing the truth, not some over-the-top, cartoonish version of what is really going on. And then we're going to dive into some of the biggest challenges the Cardinals are dealing with in this papal election. And oh, if you're into papal history, if that's your bailiwick, we are going to suggest a couple of great reads to check out.
Speaker 2:So with that quick rundown, let's jump into our first question what is a papal conclave? In case you haven't been paying attention or living under a rock over the last three episodes, we have gathered that information for you. But in quick succession, we will say papal conclaves are the gatherings of Catholic cardinals from all over the world where they come together to elect a new pope, steeped in centuries of tradition, secrecy and rituals, and gives us incredible insight into the Catholic Church and its leadership. And the fun question we're going to ask is how long do these usually take? How long does it take to elect a pope? And the answer might surprise you, because since the 20th century, the average conclave has lasted just over three days, 3.1 to be exact, for such an important decision. That's pretty efficient, isn't it? Now, the longest conclave in the last 100 years lasted five days. That happened in 1903 and again in 1922. But if you think five days is long, compare that to some of the medieval conclaves that dragged on for months and even years. Now, on the flip side, some conclaves wrap up super quickly. For example, the elections of in 1939, in August, 1978, 2005, and 2013 all finished in just two days. So what factors determine how fast or slow a conclave is and how quickly a pope gets elected? Well, it all depends on how united or divided the cardinals are about their choice. It also reflects whether the church is facing a moment of crisis or clarity. And that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to conclave history. In fact, let's dive deeper into some key issues the cardinals have faced over the past century, and each conclave reflects the challenges and the priorities of its era and the time frame it takes place in.
Speaker 2:As an example, let's take the conclave that happened in 1922. It happened right after World War I, during a time when the world was desperately searching for stability after that immense conflict. You remember that was called the Great War, the war to end all wars. So the Cardinals were facing an immense task at least what they thought at the time. Only to know, if they lived long enough, they would be back in 1939 for another conclave, just as that one was being held. World War II was beginning. And then the church faced the daunting task of balancing its spiritual mission against the backdrop of chaos in global politics.
Speaker 2:And then, by 1963, the church was adapting to the modern world. It was during the time of the Second Vatican Council. That was a pivotal moment aimed at renewing and modernizing Catholicism, and the Cardinals had a big task ahead of them then. And then you jump to 1978, and that was a truly unique year, with two conclaves just months apart. The first elected Pope John Paul I claves. Just months apart, the first elected Pope John Paul I, who tragically served for only 33 days, and the second brought Pope John Paul II, a leader who would go on to shape the church's stance on communism and global evangelization and is most likely being considered a great pope, only one of probably three or four ever to be called that. History will decide for us Now.
Speaker 2:More recently, the conclaves of 2005 and 2013 have faced entirely new pressures, from addressing the abuse scandals to responding to the rise of secularism. The church was under a growing pressure to reform and redefine its role in the global South, where the church is growing by leaps and bounds, especially in Africa. What's fascinating is that every conclave doesn't just pick a new pope. It also sets a tone for how the church is going to respond to society's ongoing questions, to society's ongoing questions poverty, geopolitics and so much more. So while the conclave process is steeped in tradition, it continues to evolve to meet the challenges of the modern era.
Speaker 2:One especially intriguing aspect of conclaves is their secrecy. The cardinals gather in the Sistine Chapel at least the modern notion of a conclave. They gather in the Sistine Chapel at least the modern notion of a conclave. They gather in the Sistine Chapel. They're completely cut off from the outside world. All communication is forbidden. Even the ballots are burned after each round of voting. That is how you get the black smoke and the white smoke. The black smoke is that the ballots are being burned and there is no two-thirds vote. And then the white smoke they're burning the ballots and they're adding chemicals in. I guess they used to add some vegetation that would make it turn white vegetation that would make it turn white, and the last time they tried to do that it was not nearly as white as they wanted it to be, so it was giving out mixed signals. So they're adding chemicals this time to make sure it's purely white. So the world will know that they have made the decision Now.
Speaker 2:You can only imagine the discussions and debates that happen under Michelangelo's iconic ceiling in the Sistine Chapel. It's truly a historic moment. Every single time these traditions might seem like relics of another time, a different era, but they all do carry symbolic meaning. They remind us of the immense responsibilities the Cardinals bear as they seek divine guidance from our Lord, jesus Christ, to make a monumental decision. We may never know exactly what happens behind those closed doors, but the impact of these conclaves is felt worldwide and they shape how the Catholic Church engages with a constantly changing world and its many, many challenges.
Speaker 2:Now the book we're talking about for today is John Allen's Conclave the Politics, the Personalities and the Process of the Next Papal Election. This book, again, like I said, published back in 2002. It's super engaging. It's a look into how the Catholic Church selects a new pope. John Allen is a seasoned Vatican expert. He breaks it all down for us. He explains how the cardinals locked themselves into the Sistine Chapel, how they vote, how they navigate the politics and the drama behind the scenes. The book also dives into the big issues the church was dealing with at that time, like papal authority and other hot topics, though some of these issues have shifted since 2002. He even gives a snapshot of the cardinals who might have been contenders for the papacy back then. That was kind of fascinating, but the spoiler is that Pope Benedict won in 2005. It's a great in-depth look at the Vatican's high-st stakes decision-making process.
Speaker 2:If you haven't checked it out, I would encourage you to. It's perfect for anyone curious about how this ancient ritual works and, honestly, it's much better than the Conclave movie or even that Robert Harris novel that the movie is based on, that everybody is talking about and it's hardly even accurate. So for us, let's deal with the real conclave, because you crave truth and I like to provide and research the truth. So let's start with a book and dive into our first nugget of wisdom from this book. Go on to the book. Being Pope is an impossible job and, despite what you hear, few church leaders actually want it. Mastering any one of its elements is a life's work. Inevitably, popes emphasize some aspects of their job at the expense of others, job at the expense of others.
Speaker 2:Beloved roly-poly, off-the-cuff. John XXIII was a magnificent pastor, but he was never accused of worrying about the details. He once summoned Cardinal Franz König of Vienna and told him to go to Budapest to visit Hungarian Cardinal Josef Menzenti, who had taken refuge from his country's communist government in the American embassy. A flabbergasted Koenig reminded the Pope that it was not simple to get in and out of Iron Curtain countries, especially to visit a man the local authorities regarded as a public menace. Pope John smiled and said Find a way. Koenig was irritated by such an offhand dismissal of the problems generated by the request. Then, of course, he found a way to carry it out Now.
Speaker 2:In 1963, pope John XXIII did send Cardinal Franz Koenig Vienna to visit Cardinal Joseph Menzenti, who had been living in asylum at the US Embassy in Budapest since the Soviet crackdown in the 1956 Hungarian Revolution. Koenig was the first Catholic leader to visit Menzenti there, hoping to understand the situation and start diplomatic talks on behalf of the Vatican. While this particular trip didn't immediately lead to Manzenti leaving the embassy, it did set the stage for future discussions. Koenig would make several follow-up visits, slowly building trust with both Manzenti and the Hungarian authorities. His efforts eventually paid off in 1971 when Minzinti, after spending 15 years at the embassy, agreed to leave Hungary for Rome. This was part of a Vatican-Hungarian agreement. Thanks in large part to König's diplomacy and a personal letter from Pope Paul VI inviting Minzinti to a religious event in Rome. Pope Paul VI inviting Manzenti to a religious event in Rome. Kooning also played a key role in convincing Manzenti not to make a dramatic exit during the US-Hungarian talks, which helped maintain both his safety and vital diplomatic relations.
Speaker 2:Now the Pope's most important role is being a teacher. This goes all the way back to Christ's words to the first Pope, peter, when he says Feed my sheep. That message carries on to every Pope since, highlighting their responsibility to guide and nurture the spiritual well-being of the faithful. As the leader of the global Catholic Church, the Pope's job is to offer moral clarity and wisdom, inspiring believers to live with faith, love and service. Whether it's through encyclicals or homilies or pastoral letters, the Pope addresses the modern challenges while staying rooted in the timeless teachings of the gospel. It's not just about authority. It's about serving and uplifting others, following Christ's example of compassion. Yet clarity in teaching the truth. Let's go back to the book for another important point. Teaching means very little if people aren't inclined to listen to the teacher. In order to keep the world's Catholics moving in the same direction, the Pope has to rely upon his bishops, the men who lead local church communities across the world.
Speaker 2:Today there are more than 4,000 bishops in the Catholic Church. The majority of them head local churches called dioceses. Larger churches are called archdioceses, headed by an archbishop, who is often assisted by auxiliary bishops. Virtually all of them are appointed by the Pope, though few Catholics realize that this central control is quite recent. In the early church, bishops were selected by the people of the diocese, in some cases by simple acclamation and others by voting. Sometimes this worked out well. In other cases, bribery, force and demagoguery produced spectacularly bad results. Yet a local election of bishops just as, at least as a principle, lived on in the church for centuries. The first bishop of the United States, john Carroll of Baltimore, was elected to the post by the priest of the 13 states. 1829, when Pope Leo XII died, there were 646 diocesan Latin Rite bishops outside the papal states, and only 24 had been appointed by the Pope. Over the 19th century, popes gradually won or seized the right to name bishops, arguing that doing so would help protect local churches from being unduly pressured by secular authorities, and the 1917 Code of Canon Law made this official by saying the Pope has the exclusive power to appoint bishops in the Latin Rite or Western Church.
Speaker 2:Now the 2018 agreement between the Vatican and China on appointing bishops has stirred up plenty of debate. Critics say the deal is a big compromise for the Vatican, handling too much, handing too much power to the Chinese government by letting them play a key role in picking bishops. This goes against centuries of efforts by popes to secure the church's authority, like what we just talked about, outlined in the 1917 Code of Canon Law. There's a lot of concern about what this means for the church's independence in China. Many worry it places the church under the control of the government that's known for cracking down on religion, limiting freedoms and targeting underground churches loyal to the Vatican. The Vatican argues the deal is about unity and protecting Catholics in China, but opponents fear it gives way too much to a regime that doesn't exactly support religious freedom and frankly lies to its people and to the world community Reference COVID-19 for one example. It just leaves people wondering what's the long-term impact on the church's autonomy and to the faithful in China? That's actually one of the most important questions this time that the Cardinals are confronting. Another one of the important questions that confronts this year's conclave comes to us from an excellent website I referenced last time, collegeofcardinalsreportcom. Here's how they describe the sonata way. I'm sorry, the German sonata way. Describe the German Sonata Way.
Speaker 2:The 2019-2023 Sonata Way of the Catholic Church in Germany was held ostensibly in response to the clergy sexual abuse crisis and declining church membership. Despite repeated and ongoing warnings from the Vatican, the process moved in a distinctly heterodox direction. It concluded with resolutions calling for changes to church teaching and practice on issues such as same-sex blessings, ordaining women as deacons, allowing married priests and revising teachings on homosexuality and sexual ethics. Participants of the German Sonata Way claimed it was an expression of citadality. Critics argued that it diverged from the Universal Church's teachings and could lead to schism. Now the debates around the German Sonata Way have put the Global Catholic Church at a major crossroads. Supporters see these discussions as a chance for the Church to from core church doctrines and the risk dividing the church.
Speaker 2:For me, it all comes down to a big question how can the church tackle modern social issues while holding on to its longstanding traditions and being faithful to Christ's teaching?
Speaker 2:Long-standing traditions and being faithful to Christ's teaching I believe it takes strong leadership and the reason why I would like to see a strong doctrinal cardinal selected. Whatever happens, the process is going to play huge in shaping the church's future, bringing both big opportunities and serious challenges. Bringing both big opportunities and serious challenges. Now, if you found this little dive into papal history and what is exactly going on in the conclave, we have a few book recommendations. You can check out the History of the Popes by John O'Malley that's a pretty good book or Saints and Sinners by Eamon Duffy. Both are great reads. If you want to explore this topic in more details, also, be sure to check out CollegeofCardinalsReportcom. That's where we broke down a lot of this research. Thanks for hanging out with me today to uncover the history and the mystery behind these papal conclaves. I hope you learned something new, came away with a deeper appreciation for how this whole process works and has shaped Catholic leadership over the centuries. And until next time, as always, keep fighting the good fight.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining us. We hope you enjoyed this Theory to Action podcast. Be sure to check out our show page at teammojoacademycom, where we have everything we discussed in this podcast, as well as other great resources. Until next time, keep getting your mojo on.